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	<title>Comments on: Camp on TULIP</title>
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	<link>http://www.pantokrator.org/2006/02/28/camp-on-tulip/</link>
	<description>Pantokrator.org ~ The Christianos.org Blog ~ 2 Timothy 4:2</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 06:11:35 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: BA</title>
		<link>http://www.pantokrator.org/2006/02/28/camp-on-tulip/#comment-440</link>
		<dc:creator>BA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Apr 2006 20:14:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Bev,

The reason is that God does control every little detail.  There isn't any language in the scripture that suggests He "can" or He "will if necessary".  However, there is an overwhelming amount of scripture that shows that He "does".

I would not call that hyper-calvnism though.  IMO hyper-calvinism is saying that free-will doesn't exist.  The fact of the matter is...both realities exist even if it that doesn't seem "logical".

The key to understanding all this is Paul's answer to the Romans.  Our response (and stance) on the issue should be just as Paul's was.

The human objection is a "logical" one.  If God's will is always done...then why/how can God find fault in me (or anyone else)?  Everyone does just as God wills it.  The problem is that the answer doesn't come in the form of "this is why (and how)".  It comes in the form of, "how can you being but a man, question God".

Romans 9:19-20 ISV
(19)  You may ask me, "Then why does God still find fault with anybody? For who can resist his will?"
(20)  On the contrary, who are you-mere man that you are-to talk back to God? Can an object that was molded say to the one who molded it, "Why did you make me like this?"

I personally don't think this will ever be understood while we are bound by time in the flesh.  However, I can say with confidence that both realities are true because the scripture teaches it.

In addition, I think the general tone of the scripture is that of free-will so that is important to keep in mind.  However, we should never minimize God's sovereignty just because of anthropomorphism in the scripture and/or the fact that it doesn't sync up with our "logic" (or it doesn't make sense).  On that same token, we shouldn't invent/teach false doctrine that God is a "hands off" God and only intervenes sometimes while everything else operates on its own.

IMO it is better to look like a schizophrenic (by man's logic) and have God's scripture on your side than it is to make things sound/look logical to man but not have the scripture on your side (or only some scripture on your side). :)

AMDG</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bev,</p>
<p>The reason is that God does control every little detail.  There isn&#8217;t any language in the scripture that suggests He &#8220;can&#8221; or He &#8220;will if necessary&#8221;.  However, there is an overwhelming amount of scripture that shows that He &#8220;does&#8221;.</p>
<p>I would not call that hyper-calvnism though.  IMO hyper-calvinism is saying that free-will doesn&#8217;t exist.  The fact of the matter is&#8230;both realities exist even if it that doesn&#8217;t seem &#8220;logical&#8221;.</p>
<p>The key to understanding all this is Paul&#8217;s answer to the Romans.  Our response (and stance) on the issue should be just as Paul&#8217;s was.</p>
<p>The human objection is a &#8220;logical&#8221; one.  If God&#8217;s will is always done&#8230;then why/how can God find fault in me (or anyone else)?  Everyone does just as God wills it.  The problem is that the answer doesn&#8217;t come in the form of &#8220;this is why (and how)&#8221;.  It comes in the form of, &#8220;how can you being but a man, question God&#8221;.</p>
<p>Romans 9:19-20 ISV<br />
(19)  You may ask me, &#8220;Then why does God still find fault with anybody? For who can resist his will?&#8221;<br />
(20)  On the contrary, who are you-mere man that you are-to talk back to God? Can an object that was molded say to the one who molded it, &#8220;Why did you make me like this?&#8221;</p>
<p>I personally don&#8217;t think this will ever be understood while we are bound by time in the flesh.  However, I can say with confidence that both realities are true because the scripture teaches it.</p>
<p>In addition, I think the general tone of the scripture is that of free-will so that is important to keep in mind.  However, we should never minimize God&#8217;s sovereignty just because of anthropomorphism in the scripture and/or the fact that it doesn&#8217;t sync up with our &#8220;logic&#8221; (or it doesn&#8217;t make sense).  On that same token, we shouldn&#8217;t invent/teach false doctrine that God is a &#8220;hands off&#8221; God and only intervenes sometimes while everything else operates on its own.</p>
<p>IMO it is better to look like a schizophrenic (by man&#8217;s logic) and have God&#8217;s scripture on your side than it is to make things sound/look logical to man but not have the scripture on your side (or only some scripture on your side). <img src='http://www.pantokrator.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>AMDG</p>
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		<title>By: Bev Parks</title>
		<link>http://www.pantokrator.org/2006/02/28/camp-on-tulip/#comment-438</link>
		<dc:creator>Bev Parks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Apr 2006 16:48:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pantokrator.org/2006/02/28/camp-on-tulip/#comment-438</guid>
		<description>Hey, I'm glad I found this blog! I'm also neither calvinist nor arminian (though if forced to say to which side I lean, it would be arminian).

AMDG wrote: &lt;i&gt;While I’m at it I might as well throw this one out there too…

    * Man has 100% free will.
    * God is 100% soveriegn over everything (every little detail).
    * …and the crowd cries, “That isn’t possible!”…bzzzt wrong answer.&lt;/i&gt;

Why does it seem that people assume that God being 100% sovereign means that he controls every little thing we do? Being sovereign certainly means that He CAN and WILL if he deems it necessary.

If God's sovereignity means that he controls and causes every little thing, right down to our own thoughts (is that hyper-calvinism?), then there are no miracles. Either everything is a miracle or nothing is. Just a thought; it may be wrong.

AMDG wrote: &lt;i&gt;The more you study the scripture, the more you realize you may not know as much as you thought you did.&lt;/i&gt;

So true! I've said the same thing to myself: "The more I study, the less I realize I know."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey, I&#8217;m glad I found this blog! I&#8217;m also neither calvinist nor arminian (though if forced to say to which side I lean, it would be arminian).</p>
<p>AMDG wrote: <i>While I’m at it I might as well throw this one out there too…</p>
<p>    * Man has 100% free will.<br />
    * God is 100% soveriegn over everything (every little detail).<br />
    * …and the crowd cries, “That isn’t possible!”…bzzzt wrong answer.</i></p>
<p>Why does it seem that people assume that God being 100% sovereign means that he controls every little thing we do? Being sovereign certainly means that He CAN and WILL if he deems it necessary.</p>
<p>If God&#8217;s sovereignity means that he controls and causes every little thing, right down to our own thoughts (is that hyper-calvinism?), then there are no miracles. Either everything is a miracle or nothing is. Just a thought; it may be wrong.</p>
<p>AMDG wrote: <i>The more you study the scripture, the more you realize you may not know as much as you thought you did.</i></p>
<p>So true! I&#8217;ve said the same thing to myself: &#8220;The more I study, the less I realize I know.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Carl Sieder</title>
		<link>http://www.pantokrator.org/2006/02/28/camp-on-tulip/#comment-300</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl Sieder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Mar 2006 02:27:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pantokrator.org/2006/02/28/camp-on-tulip/#comment-300</guid>
		<description>I agree that both sides seem wrong on Biblical grounds.  It is all of these logical proofs that each side try to do to prove their point that get confusing, but don't seem conclusive.  Where I think there is a real danger is when Calvinists seem to advocate a work of the Holy Spirit in people's live independent of the Scriptures.  It is the Holy Spirit working through the Scriptures that draws men to God and it has to be a legitimate invitation for all to come or God is really some kind of deceiver.

Thanks for your comments.  I was beginning to think I was the only one in the middle.  cs</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that both sides seem wrong on Biblical grounds.  It is all of these logical proofs that each side try to do to prove their point that get confusing, but don&#8217;t seem conclusive.  Where I think there is a real danger is when Calvinists seem to advocate a work of the Holy Spirit in people&#8217;s live independent of the Scriptures.  It is the Holy Spirit working through the Scriptures that draws men to God and it has to be a legitimate invitation for all to come or God is really some kind of deceiver.</p>
<p>Thanks for your comments.  I was beginning to think I was the only one in the middle.  cs</p>
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