Comments on: a comment on CampOnThis: The Law and the Gospel… http://www.pantokrator.org/2005/08/19/a-comment-on-camponthis-the-law-and-the-gospel/ Pantokrator.org ~ The Christianos.org Blog ~ 2 Timothy 4:2 Tue, 06 Jan 2009 06:00:30 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.3 By: jeff http://www.pantokrator.org/2005/08/19/a-comment-on-camponthis-the-law-and-the-gospel/#comment-143 jeff Thu, 08 Sep 2005 06:34:10 +0000 http://www.pantokrator.org/?p=62#comment-143 Bobby, I read your comments and wonder if you ever sense that all sides in some debates are out of touch with the sense of what is being addressed in scripture? Do you think the best thing to do in trying to understand the scriptures (I am trying) is to define words like "justification" and "sanctification" against the grain of how they are used in scripture? To subjugate the Gospel to definitions shaped by the Protestant/Catholic debate may not be the most helpful approach to gain understanding. I can't help but think that if we want to see salvation in action we shouldn't leave "Christ alone" but be as a "branch" bejoined to the "vine" (John 15). Some have asked, "Do a Christians works either earn or maintain his salvation?" We could answer, "No, but God's Christ-work does." So that if I first looked to Jesus with a loyal belief seconds ago I can know that Christ's works are my salvation or if years have passed and I am weighing the value of submission to Christ's commands in my life today, I can know that union to Christ (which necessarily includes union to His works) is my salvation. In some sense loyalty without adherence isn't loyalty. We are supposed to be immersed into Christ. I will mention one of the passages that this commentary brings to mind. "And this is the judgement, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who practices the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God (John 3:19-21)." Bobby,
I read your comments and wonder if you ever sense that all sides in some debates are out of touch with the sense of what is being addressed in scripture?

Do you think the best thing to do in trying to understand the scriptures (I am trying) is to define words like “justification” and “sanctification” against the grain of how they are used in scripture?

To subjugate the Gospel to definitions shaped by the Protestant/Catholic debate may not be the most helpful approach to gain understanding. I can’t help but think that if we want to see salvation in action we shouldn’t leave “Christ alone” but be as a “branch” bejoined to the “vine” (John 15).

Some have asked, “Do a Christians works either earn or maintain his salvation?” We could answer, “No, but God’s Christ-work does.” So that if I first looked to Jesus with a loyal belief seconds ago I can know that Christ’s works are my salvation or if years have passed and I am weighing the value of submission to Christ’s commands in my life today, I can know that union to Christ (which necessarily includes union to His works) is my salvation. In some sense loyalty without adherence isn’t loyalty. We are supposed to be immersed into Christ. I will mention one of the passages that this commentary brings to mind.
“And this is the judgement, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who practices the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God (John 3:19-21).”

]]> By: Bobby http://www.pantokrator.org/2005/08/19/a-comment-on-camponthis-the-law-and-the-gospel/#comment-116 Bobby Mon, 22 Aug 2005 18:21:16 +0000 http://www.pantokrator.org/?p=62#comment-116 Good post Brian. I think the Law, from the typical current day Reformed position sadly reinserts the Law as having meritorious salvific significance. In other words given the doctrine of "Perseverance of the Saints" and "Unconditionial Election" and "Limited Atonement" a person never really knows if they are truly one of the elect for whom Christ died. This is where the "Law" comes in--it is used as the barometer to test and see if a person truly is one of the elect (they'll know if they are keeping the Law (historically this has been labeled, Experiemental Predestinarianism--emphasis on process/sanctification to the displacement of justification). I don't see much difference, if any, between this view of salvation, and the Roman understanding of salvation. They both emphasize ethical performance. The problem as I see it, practically, is that both of these constructs have the person looking at themselves, and their works, rather than at Christ Alone and His works. Good post Brian. I think the Law, from the typical current day Reformed position sadly reinserts the Law as having meritorious salvific significance. In other words given the doctrine of “Perseverance of the Saints” and “Unconditionial Election” and “Limited Atonement” a person never really knows if they are truly one of the elect for whom Christ died. This is where the “Law” comes in–it is used as the barometer to test and see if a person truly is one of the elect (they’ll know if they are keeping the Law (historically this has been labeled, Experiemental Predestinarianism–emphasis on process/sanctification to the displacement of justification). I don’t see much difference, if any, between this view of salvation, and the Roman understanding of salvation. They both emphasize ethical performance. The problem as I see it, practically, is that both of these constructs have the person looking at themselves, and their works, rather than at Christ Alone and His works.

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